Re: Copy Editing and Hammers
Aug. 11th, 2025 07:18 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rynling> What's the point of copy editing if you have no sense of style?
Sorry I'm not done yet.
When it comes to matters of style, a writer will sometimes bend grammatical rules to make their prose more interesting and enjoyable to read. This sort of playfulness is obnoxious if overused, but it can be fun in moderation.
To give an example, I have this one sentence in my story where I'm like: "The room was cluttered with A and B and C and D." The point of breaking grammatical rules in this instance is that the sentence is cluttered like the room is cluttered. Also, the sentence is written in perfect iambic pentameter to convey that the clutter is pleasing in its own way.
Again, it's annoying if every sentence is like this, but you'd think an attentive reader would come across this particular sentence and maybe smile a little. Most readers wouldn't notice the structure of the sentence at all, but perhaps they'd have a clearer sense of how the room looks and feels. The copy editor, on the other hand, saw the sentence and wanted to give me a lecture on grammar.
She also seemed to have trouble understanding that, even though a character might privately think one thing, there are circumstances in which they would say something else to be polite. This is not an inconsistency; it's basic characterization.
Once again, this can be obnoxious if the reader is expected to make connections that only exist in the writer's mind, but sometimes a character is going to need to say something they don't truly believe. Real people do this too. To be polite in social situations.
I guess there are two points to take away from this. First, I should be more specific about what I want from a copy editing job. And second, experiences like this make me somewhat hesitant to spend actual money (ie, hundreds of dollars) to hire an editor for a longer project. Getting clueless and unnecessary feedback is actively harmful in that it makes me second-guess whether what I'm writing is accessible to the lowest common denominator of TikTok girlies who only read YA romance. Nobody needs to write like that.
Sorry I'm not done yet.
When it comes to matters of style, a writer will sometimes bend grammatical rules to make their prose more interesting and enjoyable to read. This sort of playfulness is obnoxious if overused, but it can be fun in moderation.
To give an example, I have this one sentence in my story where I'm like: "The room was cluttered with A and B and C and D." The point of breaking grammatical rules in this instance is that the sentence is cluttered like the room is cluttered. Also, the sentence is written in perfect iambic pentameter to convey that the clutter is pleasing in its own way.
Again, it's annoying if every sentence is like this, but you'd think an attentive reader would come across this particular sentence and maybe smile a little. Most readers wouldn't notice the structure of the sentence at all, but perhaps they'd have a clearer sense of how the room looks and feels. The copy editor, on the other hand, saw the sentence and wanted to give me a lecture on grammar.
She also seemed to have trouble understanding that, even though a character might privately think one thing, there are circumstances in which they would say something else to be polite. This is not an inconsistency; it's basic characterization.
Once again, this can be obnoxious if the reader is expected to make connections that only exist in the writer's mind, but sometimes a character is going to need to say something they don't truly believe. Real people do this too. To be polite in social situations.
I guess there are two points to take away from this. First, I should be more specific about what I want from a copy editing job. And second, experiences like this make me somewhat hesitant to spend actual money (ie, hundreds of dollars) to hire an editor for a longer project. Getting clueless and unnecessary feedback is actively harmful in that it makes me second-guess whether what I'm writing is accessible to the lowest common denominator of TikTok girlies who only read YA romance. Nobody needs to write like that.
no subject
Date: 2025-08-11 12:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2025-08-11 01:56 pm (UTC)Like let’s say someone sends you a murder mystery story set on a planetary ring spaceship, and a character delivers a bit of sci-fi flavor text that’s not crucial to the plot. If this character says, “the spaceship is powered by an LGF3357 particle accelerator,” the correct response for the editor is to say, “Okay sounds legit.” In our universe, particle accelerators don’t power spaceships; but also, in our universe, artificial planetary rings don’t exist. You let the genre convention pass as a genre convention, and then you move on.
I know you understand this, of course. I’m just frustrated. I guess what I’m really upset by is how there are all sorts of “services for writers” offered by people who charge professional rates despite not really knowing what they’re doing.
I hired this particular person because they’re a published fantasy writer, but I should know as well as anyone that being a writer doesn’t necessarily translate into being an editor. Editing is definitely an art as well as a skill, and there’s just no real way to tell if someone who offers “editorial services” is just talking out of their ass.
no subject
Date: 2025-08-11 04:53 pm (UTC)That's even more shocking and disappointing coming from someone who's also a published writer of speculative fiction... :( I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. This sucks.
no subject
Date: 2025-08-11 01:54 pm (UTC)I just wanted to say that I absolutely ADORE when writers play with prose in a way that evokes the imagery/tone they're aiming for. Reading a good book can feel like a dance - there's a rhythm to it. Sometimes that dance makes you smile and sweeps you up in all the feelings. Sometimes it'll trip you and bring the string quartet to a record scratch-esque halt. All because of how the words are arranged and presented. I might be wildly unfamiliar with copyeditor and the publishing scene, but anyone who doesn't get that (let alone enjoy that) feels like someone not worth listening to.
So sorry you had to deal with this bag of dicks. And thank you for not catering to the tiktok girlies lol
no subject
Date: 2025-08-11 02:09 pm (UTC)I definitely write for my inner TikTok girlie sometimes, but a good editor has to be able to read the room. Tone and style are crucial elements of fiction! If someone is aiming for a contemporary take on a classic gothic style, you have to let them have a few rhetorical flourishes. Otherwise we’d all just be out here posting generic ChatGPT slop.
Speaking of which, yesterday I reblogged a post from you about how a writer has to read all sorts of material in order to be able to write good porn, and honestly. I don’t like needles and would never get a tattoo. But if I did. That post would 100% be my tramp stamp.
no subject
Date: 2025-08-13 11:41 am (UTC)And damn now I want a contemporary take on a classical gothic story. I don't know if I'd trust most authors to pull it off, but the concept alone fucks and I'm here for it.
Oh my god, that post. I remember reading it and nodding along like yup yup this all tracks, then got to the last line about how it's all about writing good porn and the only reason I didn't reblog it within a millisecond was bc I couldn't breathe from laughing so hard. What a whole ass mood. Tramp stamp worthy indeed!! 🤝
no subject
Date: 2025-08-11 02:29 pm (UTC)Personally, she sounds to me like someone fresh out of school with very little experience with actual writing and/or a very limited range of reading material. Or maybe she just worships at the altar of Grammarly or something.
Anyway, good luck in working with her, and keep fighting the good fight for all of your lovely stylistic choices!
no subject
Date: 2025-08-12 01:02 pm (UTC)That's exactly the sense I got. She's a published author, but that doesn't translate to being a skilled editor. And that's cool, everyone needs to start somewhere. But I'm annoyed that she charged professional rates despite her inexperience.
I don't begrudge the money! Rather, I'm annoyed at the divide between professional publishing, where editors tend to know what they're doing, and "independent" services for unpublished writers, where it's the Wild West. I wish it that divide was less obvious and painful. Like, imagine if people who didn't pay their way through an MFA program could get published, wouldn't that be nice.
But that's not this particular copy editor's fault, I guess. I treated her as I'd treat anyone who's getting started with a career - I complimented her on a job well done and tipped her handsomely. Best of luck to her in the future as she gets her editing sea legs, you know?
no subject
Date: 2025-08-11 02:30 pm (UTC)Fun fact! The use of more conjunctions than you actually need to create some type of effect is a rhetorical device with a long and respected history.
My IRL job title contains the word "editor"; it's a position I accepted out of a naive hope that I could help people get their ideas across more cleanly and accurately. I find that my colleagues are all weird pedants who want to split hairs about arbitrary word usage conventions, ask ChatGPT what an infinitive is, and not even attempt to understand the substance of what they're reading.
So often in the wild I read shit and think "man, imagine how much better this could have been with an editor!" But I am probably underestimating how many times people really did engage an editor and the editor, like the one you spoke to and the ones I work with, simply did a bad job.
no subject
Date: 2025-08-12 01:24 pm (UTC)It's been my experience that good editors are worth their weight in gold. Editing at all levels is an art that I greatly admire.
My own writing could definitely benefit from editorial work, always. Every time I've professionally published something - which isn't often, but still - I get back editorial comments that are so brilliant and obvious that it's almost painful. Not painful in the sense that I feel embarrassed, but painful in the sense of being suddenly exposed to unadulterated insight. Like Lovecraftian, almost.
Because I knew there'd be disparities, I decided to experiment and hire three freelance copy editors to work on this story. The last one to return the manuscript has a light touch and a good sense of humor, and I think she's a keeper. I'm happy she exists. I'm happy you exist, too!
As for your colleagues... I've gotten insane peer reviews from people like that, and I'm convinced that they have their own special place in Hell. And they're probably sicko enough to enjoy it.
Anyway, I gave this particular editor five stars and a large tip. It's my god-given right to vent on my stupid little blog, but in my heart I wish her well at (what I now assume is probably) the start of her editing career. Hopefully her work will improve with experience.
no subject
Date: 2025-08-15 06:41 pm (UTC)I'm so sorry.